The Truth About REVEAL

Friends,

I’m thrilled to see the high level of interest and energy behind the blogosphere comments about REVEAL. But I’ve read enough postings to think that it might be helpful to provide a few facts on three issues that keep coming up. Trust me. I’m not into “spin control” here. I just want to fill in some gaps.

1. It’s Not About Willow

• REVEAL’s findings are based on thirty churches besides Willow. In all thirty churches, we’ve found the six segments of REVEAL’s spiritual continuum, including the Stalled and Dissatisfied segments. And these churches aren’t all Willow clones. We’ve surveyed traditional Bible churches, mainline denominations, African-American churches and churches representing a wide range of geographies and sizes. Right now we’re fielding the survey to 500 additional churches, including 100 international churches. So, while REVEAL was born out of a Willow research project in 2004, the findings are not exclusive to Willow Creek.

2. Willow Repents?

• The Leadership Journal blog started with this question, and the answer is NO. Repenting, in my mind, deals with confessing sin. There is absolutely no sin involved in this deal. Just good, old fashion learning. What you are seeing is a set of leaders coming to grips with some new facts and deciding to do something about it. This is nothing new for us here at Willow. We are passionately committed to learning. Redeeming this broken world through the love and power of Jesus Christ is just too important for us not to be in a constant state of learning. We’ve always been a church in motion and REVEAL is just another example of Willow trying to be open to God’s design for this local church.

3. Is Willow Re-thinking its Seeker Focus?

• Simple answer – NO. Hybels would say that Willow is not just seeker-focused. We are seeker-obsessed. The power of REVEAL’s insights for our seeker strategy is the evangelistic strength uncovered in the more mature segments. If we can serve them better, the evangelistic potential is enormous, based on our findings.

I hope this was helpful. In any event, I’m enjoying following the dialogue. Keep it up! And let me know if you have any questions you’d like me to address.

Greg Hawkins

Comments

[etk]

As a disclaimer, I am not a Willow Creek "person" or "disciple". I have seen what I thought was good and so-so when I have looked at Willow Creek through the years.

I think that as you probably know alot of things that are being addressed here are "issues" that people have "held against" Willow Creek for a long time...

The sad thing, to me, is to see people say "See I told you so!" I MUST admit there was a flicker of that in my heart, and THEN I felt the LORD say "At least they realize what the problem is and are trying to take care it."

As I was typing I REALIZED that 1 Corinthians 13:6 "love rejoices not in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth" would apply here. How about everybody say "Yeah! They are trying to take care of a blind spot." I would think THAT would be sign of the spiritual growth we are supposed to be talking about...

[Kerry Denten]

Hi Greg,

What's happening with Willow and Reveal is truly one of the single most encouraging stories I have heard in the last five years or more of my journey.

Upon watching the full 13 minute version of your presentation, I was moved to tears to think that the very things I have seen in the Spirit and have been believing for God to change in the contemporary church, are finally happening .. and potentially on such a grand scale.

We need to pray for you all. You'll need all the help and protection you can get to make this transition complete and intact, knowing how "dissatisfied" our enemy will be with you.

Having said that, there is only one caviet I'd like to place on my aforestated comments.

That is, I believe it would have been wiser to have seen some proven fruit coming from the changes and new practices you're basing on your findings both within Willow Creek and the 30 churches surveyed, before you put together the slick package to "reveal" the research.

I know you guys are excited about your findings, and I am too. But growing fruit takes time and it's clear you guys are still learning as you go in regard to what you're seeing in your research.

The reason for my saying this is, while your research seems right and has clearly made a massive impact at Willow, you must remember that if your conclusions and methods of application are wrong, then this becomes yet another failed program marketed by another mega-church, leaving a lot of hopeful people shattered.

God forbid that this should be the case here!

I'll be praying for you guys. More power to your journey ahead! We'll be looking for good fruit.

[David]

I was stunned and excited when a friend referred me to your video. I've referred several hungry pastors to it over the past week. I have your book on order.

I notice that since the video, you've added a sixth category: the "Dissatisfied." You had already commented that a significant subset of the "Christ-Centered" were considering leaving the church - at least in the sense of withdrawing from regular fellowship with the local church. I would not be surprised if a significant subset of the "Dissatisfied" group would either be gone from church or seriously considering it.

So here's my point: your survey donesn't inclulde any of the "out of the Sunday morning" group. If George Barna is right in Revolutions, this portion of the "Church" is being missed in your surveys and your data. Are you making adjustments for this lack in your data?

Please keep up the good work! Thanks!

[Joanna Ng]

Hi Greg,
It is indeed encouraging to see this "Reveal" initiative by Willow as an authentic way to lead.

While it is great to start realizing how critical it is to help Christians to be self-fed in our walk with Christ, i have to say that this is FAR from sufficient.

I strongly believe the necesscity in adding the following:
a) Churches must produce disciples who are not just "self fed" but also "MAKE OTHER DISCIPLES" i.e. producing other disciples by discipling others. This is how Christ commissioned us in Matt 28:18-20. Missing the "Reproducing attribute" misses the essence of discipleship. Not taking Christ's great commission (of making disciples of all nations) seriously to the heart of the church is missing the whole point. A serious in depth Bible study on Matt 28:18-20 and on Discipleship is very much warranted.

b) Disciples are followers of Christ who are obedience to Christ by taking up our cross daily to follow Him. Complete OBEDIENCE & SACRIFICE is the KEY to follower of Christ. Disciples of Christ must be able to hear the voice of CHrist (John 10:27: Christ said: My sheep hear my voice and I know them) and follow in obedience.

c) The Power of the Holy Spirit should have been the center Figure for this whole reengineering -- and seems to be missing from the center stage. I believe the Holy Spirit is onto something big with North American Christians who are mostly self-centric instead of Christ centered. Much prayers for revival is needed. I pray that Prayers for the Power of the Holy Spirit takes priority over more research and survey (which is important but only second important).

Sincerely pray that the Holy Spirit will bring true repentance of our self-centered-ness and steer us to let God's passion of the Great Commission be what we live for! If we do this not by our effort but by counting on the power of the Holy Spirit -- HE can change the world through us and our submission to CHRIST! (A Totally different thing from we tried to change the world)..

Blessings to you all.

[Joanna Ng]

The whole point about "Church" is NOT ABOUT how its attendees' needs be met .. (it might be important but not the point about church) -- this is a "consumer-centric" approach.

The whole point about "church" is how God can use each of the local congregation to accomplish His Kingdom business of make disciples of all nations -- Christ started with only 12 disciples -- so the question to ask
is "HOW CAN CHURCH PRODUCE CHRIST DISCIPLES WHO ARE ABLE TO PRODUCE other CHRIST DISCIPLES?"
-- Knowing that no one can change another one's life, only the Holy Spirit can..
-- What makes church exciting is when disciples obey to go and make disciples, as commissioned by Christ, and first hand experience the power of the Holy Spirit to change lives .. and we are just in awe with the Power of Salvation!

[Wayne Petts]

I just watched your video on the Reveal website and I would like to offer a few comments.

Both Willow Creek and Saddleback Church have both had an overwhelming and similar influence on the church in the United States and abroad. I have experienced that influence in several churches. I believe that you are correct in saying that a lot of your programs probably are not very effective in growing disciples into maturity. The problem is that you probably (I don't know for sure) developed most of those programs based on research, although perhaps a more informal form of research. It appears to me that you are about to make the same mistakes over again. You have said that your programs are not effective in growing disciples into maturity, but it appears that you are only going to do more research to come up with new programs to replace the old programs.

I noticed that at the end of the video you said this: "our dream is that we fundamentally change the way we do church.....that we replace it with new insights, informed by research and rooted in scripture".

The best way to do church is to do church the way God intends for His people to do church. If you want to know how God intends for you to do church you should ask God, not a bunch of people who attend a church that by your own admission is not very effective in growing disciples into maturity.

I would like to suggest that instead of gaining new insights "informed by research" you should save the research money and gain new insights informed by scripture. What is an insight "rooted in scripture" but "informed by research". I do not understand this concept. For an insight to be rooted in scripture it must be informed by scripture. An insight informed by research may be decorated with scripture, but an insight can only be rooted in scripture if it is informed by scripture.

Colossians 2:8 says: Be careful that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deceit based on human tradition, based on the elemental forces of the world, and not based on Christ.

I suggest that gaining insight based on research that seeks answers from surveys of men may result in human philosophy and empty deceit based on human tradition as opposed to insight based on Christ.

I suggest that you and the rest of your leadership go away somewhere private where no one can disturb you. Take only your Bibles, get on your faces and seek God through His Word, which is sufficient, and don’t get up again until you have new insight that is based on Christ and not on human philosophy or else you may be deceived for another decade. If you want to do church right you must do it God’s way and you can only discover how to do that in God’s Word.

I pray that I have not offended you or anyone else who reads this, but if that is the case so be it.

[Joanna Ng]

Discipleship relationship through up-close and personal authentic modeling is the most effective way to produce spiritual growth in others, not church program.

Church programs are at best in fostering the building of effective personal discipleship relationships.

The "personal discipleship" approach has proven to work from the Bible:
- Jesus spending 3 yrs with the twelve 24x7 (see how He modeled servanthood in John 13)
- example of Paul, Silas, Timothy in 1 Thess 1:5-6: "You know how we lived among you for your sake. You became imitators of us and of the Lord"
- Paul in 1 Corinthians 4:16 said "imitate me"

It started with those obedient disciples who were filled with the power of salvation and the power of the Holy Spirit -- teaching others to obey all the commands of Christ (Matt 28:20) -- as guided by the Holy Spirit.

There was no expensive fancy program nor research of any kind.

Why would mature Christians want to leave the church at all if they are being used by God in the heavenly kingdom business of making disciples?
Why would anyone leave a church that is evident of the power of the Holy Spirit in salvation?
Acts 2 church exemplified these two principles, which was the founding church model for Willow.

[Mike]

Hi Greg and Cally

I just finished reading Reveal. Great stuff. Profound stuff. This is the kind of thing that will change the trajectory of any church whose leadership team is humble enough to receive honest feedback and courageous enough to make changes based on that feedback.

I'm sure you've looked at other instruments for measuring the heart (e.g., Christian Life Profile, Barna's metrics, etc.), but you may also be interested in some of the online surveys at www.Assess-Yourself.org, since these surveys estimate people's spiritual condition (Christian character, love for God, worldview, etc.).

Thanks again for your ministry. I look forward to to seeing where God takes this!

[Robert Gurgel]

Thank you for the opportunity to watch and comment on the "13 Minute" video.

What works? God's Word works! God says, "My Word will not return to me empty, but will accomplish what I desire and achieve the purpose for which I sent it..." (Isaiah 55:11)

Our goal, as people whom the Holy Spirit through Word and Sacrament has made disciples, is to find any and all God-pleasing ways to confront the world with the Word so that the Spirit may bring them to faith in Christ which makes them disciples too. That's the "great commission" of Christ "...baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you." (Matthew 28:19b,20a)'

God help me (and you?)to see my sorry self through Greg's revelation of himself:
eager to meet and greet (doing church?) but not focused on worship; doing the numbers and money game while dismissing the Word cf. Greg's words; "we had a great talk on the stage and I'm sure people responded to it" but...

That "great talk on the stage", if it was true to God's Word and centered in Christ, was what Paul called "the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes" (Romans 1:16b) That's what works! That's how God works. Proclaiming that is how God works through people.

Present disciples mature through the Word. Future disciples become disciples through the Word. We need to remember what the LORD told Jeremiah: "...let the one who has my Word speak it faithfully". (23:28b) When we do that, God will strengthen our discipleship and make disciples of others. Neither Greg nor I nor you can do what Greg spoke of doing "When I am producing more disciples of Christ"!

The Word works! Trust the Word. Use the Word.

[Sammy J]

I came to this blog to "join in the conversation". I'm not sure that this response should be posted as a comment here, but have only done so because it's the most recent posting.

I really glad to hear that Willow Creek (and many others) are having a re-think about how the church should operate in order to improve discipleship.

My concern is that it's as though this "conversation" is a new one. The truth is it has been going on for decades, and Willow Creek seems to now be playing catch-up.

There's been a lot of voices trying to get across the message that the way "contemporary church" operates is essentially ineffective in reaching the unreached and in discipling those who've already made a commitment to Christ. This is not new, and yet for many it will seem as though this is a discovery that Willow Creek has made on its own! I almost expect to see a patent application for a new model of church programming coming from this.

For some well thought through, well presented, and incredibly thought provoking reading, can I recommend to those who haven't read it "The Shaping of Things to Come" by Alan Hirsch and Mike Frost. This is a pretty confronting book, as are their other writings.

We don't really need more books on the topic, and we don't really need institutions to create a new formula for doing church. We need individuals to take up their calling to evangelize and disciple, and for the church to support them in doing so.

[Thomas Gibson]

Greg - I noticed the the majority of comments are from watching the video or reading the book. I would advise everyone to attend one of the"ON THE ROAD" meetings. I flew to Chicago for the day event, and it is the 2nd half of the day.... the part not on the video or in the book.... the 2nd part of the day that opens the question of "SO WHAT?" You take the research and make it's application personal and compelling and for our group, helped lay a new foundational block that will guide our new strategic plan that will embrace the next 5 years. While some detractors desire to point solely to the Bible to inform, the greatest Evangelists of the last two centuries have professed a need to keep the Bible in one hand, even as we keep the newspaper in the other if we hope to be relevant to the culture at all.
Your research is a foundational block, but our new strategic plan has several blocks that informed by scripture give us the road map for the next 5 years. Thank you for being honest enough to look "inside" so the church can transparently comunicate and live the Good News in the coming days. Tom Gibson

[Deb Lorier]

A.W. Tozer summed this condition up years ago in his book, The Knowledge of the Holy, "We have lost our spirit of worship and our ability to withdraw inwardly to meet God in adoring silence. Modern Christianity is simply not producing the kind of Christian who can appreciate or experience the life in the Spirit. This loss of the concept of majesty has come just when the forces of religion are making dramatic gains and the churches are more prosperous than at any time within the past several hundred years. BUT THE ALARMING THING IS THAT OUR GAINS ARE MOSTLY EXTERNAL AND OUR LOSES WHOLLY INTERNAL."

Our seeker churches are a mile wide and an inch deep. The heartbreak is we have nurtured a whole generation of believers, especially our children on "God Lite."

The GOOD NEWS, God is the great I AM and is sovereign!
"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem... how often I have wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing.

It's time to repent, turn from OUR wicked ways and seek His face! Stop the surveys, focus groups,man's ways...seek the one who knows!!!

[Stephen Munday]

I came and watched the video having been in a church in a UK in the early 90s that implemented a lot of your principles, and having just listened to an interesting discussion on your video on the God Journey podcast, which is here - http://thegodjourney.com/wordpress/?p=164.

First of all, let me say that your principles of being "seeker friendly" have had a great influence on how my concept of church has developed. However, now I am wondering how you can revise even very well-intentioned and well-researched programs to restructure the organization that is called "church", when the reality is that the church is the body of Christ, which cannot be put into a box. I would suggest that the concepts of "living body" and "organization" are very unlikely to be able to coexist successfully together.

It was very interesting for me to hear your research results, which basically seemed to suggest that the more mature (although I don't know the details of how you measured this) people were as Christians, the more likely they were to be dissatisfied with the local church - i.e. the organization to which people attach the label "church". I have found in my own journey, seeing many congregations in the UK, US and from a long period now in Japan, that the more I have grown in maturity, the more the organizations (of many different styles) have come to disappoint. The fact is that I now think that the problem is that I have mixed up the real church, which is the living body of Christ - the believers - and the organization that is (with good intention) labeled "church", to detrimental effect.

I would urge you to consider carefully how you really define "church" because this worldview will influence how you approach the issues you are trying to address. For example: Is church a building? Is it an activity which you can "do" , "organize" or "structure"? Is it even confined to individual geographic areas - local churches? Or is the church the (singular) living and dynamic body of Christ?

So, even if you may give intellectual assent to the church being a singularity that is made up of believers distributed through many organizations and none, if you then find yourself counting attendance on a Sunday morning at a worship service as being indicative of the state of the "church", then I hope you will consider the fact that you are confusing the organization that you happen to be involved in with the body of Christ.

The other thing I would suggest, and something that your summary of your own research seems to show, is that there is a good chance that the most mature believers are most likely to have left the local church body. So, it would seem to be a good idea when drawing up plans for additional surveys to not only look at responses of people who are still participating in the target congregation, but also to try to identify those mature believers who have left and try to find out why that was and where they are now at with their own walk with Jesus. This should also provide interesting insights that simply surveying the present congregation may well not supply.

Anyway, I hope that your reflection and research is fruitful and that through it God leads you into new blessings.

[John Van Donk]

May I observe, from the outset, that the "project" as a whole, seems incredibly important. For any congregation, and for the church at large, to do this kind of self examination and introspection cannot help but produce positive results. Thank you for entering into the fray with the rest of us who have contemplated these issues for some time already.

As is often the case, much hinges on the way the question(s) is/are framed. Greg, in his video, suggests that a disconnect happens for Christians who have reached a certain level of maturity ("close" & "centered") They supposedly begin to feel as though the church no longer scratches them where they itch.

Perhaps the problem lies in an ecclesiocentric (note the small "e") view of the Missio Dei. Perhaps some clues can be found in a broader Kingdom vision. Very likely, people who can reasonably be labeled as "close to Jesus" and with lives that are "centered in Jesus", will have found means of meaningful worship, growth-producing learning, edifying spiritual disciplines, encouraging communion with other believers, and fruit-producing service opportunities, in any number of venues in addition to a local church, but very much part of the Church Universal.

The problem arises when any local church aspires to be the Church, failing to see God at work in the world, building His Kingdom, using servants of various levels of spiritual maturity to make amazing things happen in places other than a local church, even if that local church happens to be as big as Willowcreek.

What if we were to draw an analogy between the church and the family, in which any local church is seen as an entry-point to the Church? In this view Willowcreek is to be highly commended for doing "entry" really well! But, as happens in any family, children grow up and mature, and while retaining their identity as members of the Family, will find ways to live their lives, usually productively, in the bigger world. In a healthy family system there would be regular occasions to celebrate the Family (e.g. various holiday traditions, birthdays, and perhaps even a summer outing). But an equally important result of this normal maturation process is for individual families, and individuals, to reflect, in the world, the identity, integrity, and values that can reasonably be expected of a member of the Family.

One might even go one step further, and contemplate some characteristics of a somewhat less than healthy family system, where a matriarch or patriarch decrees that all family activity shall happen within the context of one family (his or her own). We all know examples of how such forced family fun can sour relationships, and make people feel controlled and manipulated.

It seems to me that Bill was onto something when he envisioned a new paradigm where maturing Christians take increasing responsibility for their spiritual journey. This would leave to the local church the task of drawing in new believers and preparing them for a life of worship and service. Perhaps a meaningful component of our corporate life would be for every new believer to be commisioned into a specific ministry in the world, or, rather, in the Kingdom. In this view the local church would become more of a way-station, rather than the cradle-to-grave destination some of us like to think it is. That designation, "cradle-to-grave", it seems to me, rightfully belongs only to the Church Universal, and it seems to be doing just fine, thank you very much.

[Pat Dys]

Having read your book, I have just one question? Why should I believe you NOW? You admit you were very wrong in the past, and now you seem to claim you have had some special revelation that leads you in this direction and this time you got it right? Why should I believe that? You give scant scripture to back up your assertions and the one you do use (Mark 4:26-27)says that God's kingdom is like seed which sprouts and grows in a way that even the sower does not understand. What makes you think YOU understand with your man-made research just how that happens. God says you don't. God's revelation is complete with scripture and unless you can prove your points by scripture, you are making the same mistake you made the first time. Don't ask me to follow an admittedly wrong leader who doesn't even now have scripture as authority.

[JAG]

I wanted to share a bit of info for you to chew upon from the perspective of one who has told my senior minister, "I am not being fed by your messages." I hope you will listen to this with sincerity and without a religious mindset.

I came to know the Lord outside of a church building. I was attending a small young adults fellowship in Dallas. I was never pressured into giving my life to God or Jesus, but rather was loved upon and welcomed each and every time I went. My friend whom had invited me only mentioned to me ONCE, "If you ever feel like you want to pray and ask Jesus to come into your heart, just let me know."

There was no pressuring of any kind. And here's the thing, most of my life, I had grown up in church when I had met this friend.

You see, even at the age of 16 when my father allowed me to start looking at other churches, I was already fed up with the systematic format that I had experienced in church and hoped it would be different elsewhere. I searched catholic, baptist, pentecostal, non-denominational, Mormonism, and eventually other non-christian forms of religion.

Here was what I discovered from all of this searching. First the good: Mormonism was amazing at making you feel like you were loved and welcomed, non-denominationalism taught me a bit about freedom in worship(in the truer sense, and not just music). That's all!

Now the Bad: I found that I was loved in all of these communities, but only so much as I was involved more. When I was involved less, I wasn't regarded nearly as much. Even worse, when I didn't show up for a few services, I never got calls to make sure I was okay, even from those who I believed to be good friends in the church, and never from a pastor one. I was allowed to exercise spiritual gifts in the non-denominational church, but only as long as I went through someone else to share it. Furthermore, on that point, if that person felt it might cause any waves it was never permitted to be said. Then other churches just booted the spiritual gifts right out, which meant to me, you don't want me here either then. And here's the thing, they all still had a systematic form to them. Not always the same, but still very similar.

Now, I am at a church today, but here is what I have come to: Church as I have known it my whole life, is for the most part, man-made. I have found little in Scripture to support much of what the "Church", not meaning ekklesia, is doing today. Moreover, I have watched more and more people respond to God, to Jesus, outside of a churches walls, then I ever have within.

This is how I grew in the Lord: 95% was from outside a church building or church group. It didn't come from good teachings or powerful sermons. It didn't come from fellowships or bible studies, though these are helpful things.

Here's the thing...it came from seeing God demonstrated. It came from seeing Jesus' teachings lived out, and power being shown.

Let me expound on that a bit. I grew from seeing those things spoken about in Scripture being lived out in a person's life I interacted with. It came from seeing the power of God that was talked about in the Old and New Testament happening before my eyes. Seeing things, and being a part in things like AIDS leaving a mans body and seeing the medical records to prove it was leaving, terminal Lukemia leaving the body of a woman, fevers leaving in a moment, headaches being taken away, animals being prayed over and being brought back to life, and others. It came from prophetic words from people who knew nothing about my life and yet would tell me about things that happened to me as a child, or address sins I had that God was wanting to deal with in me.

To sum it up, it came from a God who I knew and saw to be real, powerful, and present today. It didn't come from reading the Bible 30 minutes a day every day, or praying 1 hour every single day, or going to sermons every saturday or sunday. It didn't come from bible studies every wednesday. It didn't come from young adult meetings, or retreats. These things can help in planting a seed. But that's just it, a seed. It wasn't until I saw what was being taught in the Bible happen today before my eyes that I truly grew in the Lord.

I love my family, all the millions of us, and it is because of that love that I am sharing this. My hope is that you will read it, take it to heart, and consider. Consider that what is needed isn't another systematic format that teaches people to stay inside. But demonstrations of God in lives changed by the Holy Spirit, that challenge people to grow and go outside the church walls.

The Lord said that he sent us out like sheep to the slaughter. I believe that was because Jesus was calling his disciples to go to the places of darkness and proclaim the kingdom, which might lead to their death. It was never meant to be contained in four walls. If you want an idea of what to do better for your church, then consider this: Church buildings are there to help plant seeds, and encourage people to live out first what they have learned in the Bible, not by opinions or teachings. Then, go out.

And one more thing. Stop the numbers game. There is a Scripture about the religous that says...they have a form of godliness, but deny the power there in. Do you worry when the offerings are low? Why? Haven't you read that God knows our needs before we ask? Jesus said,"Seek the Kingdom, and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added to you." Are you seeking the Kingdom or the Dollar? You cannot serve both God and Money. Choose you this day whom you shall serve.

[Geoffrey]

Dear Greg and the Willow Creek Leadership,

I would first like to point out that any ability to see your own error is an evidence of God's grace in your church and I trust that you will find encouragement in that.

I rejoice in the apparent work of God in your church as you would seek to glorify Him more.

However I do have one major concern about the limited information that I have taken in about what is going on at your church. In Greg's video on this site, he seems to indicate that Willow Creek's leadership will be listening to the congregation for guidance in how to lead the church from here on out. This is troubling to me for two reasons:

1. We should be looking to the Word of God to show us how to lead His people. I believe that Christians should fear God and keep his commands rather than fear man and seek to cater to his desires. God has graciously given us His word so that we will know how he wants us to conduct our lives and I believe that is the best place to look for guidance.

2. While Biblical leadership involves considers those you lead, I believe it would be an error to take your cues from them. Imagine if a father asked his children what time they would like to go to bed. Or if Christ asked his disciples what he should do. The fact is, people need leaders because we do not know what is best on our own. As a businessman, I understand the concept of knowing your customers, but I believe that it would be a grievous error to run God's church with that philosophy.

Ultimately, I don't believe that leading a church is about being successful, but rather about being faithful. Understanding the difference between the two will have tremendous implications for your church.

Finally, I hope and pray that God uses your church in a powerful way through all of this to draw this country closer to Himself that it might be conformed to His image. Might I commend to you the resources of IX Marks (www.9marks.org) as you seek to honor God in your church. Thank you for your humility.

your brother,

Geoffrey

[Eric]

In the video, when Greg gets to the marker board, he makes a statement that 80% of the church already knows, "One size doesn't fit all". It in the later stages of spiritual development that this really matters, hence the huge number of moderately mature believers who have no real sense of purpose in their church participation. This is where the real strength of the church is. These are the ones who could have huge impact in the marketplace but the church's one size fits all approach doesn't encourage their development in these arenas.

The unwillingness of the church to move strongly (and train) in the supernatural expressions of the kingdom are hamstringing the Christians who are best positioned for great impact.

[Jeremy]

No repentance? After instructing thousands to do this whole seeker sensitive method for years and years, and now acknoledging it was wrong? After countless souls were pushed out because they were obstacles of transition but in reality were just contending for the Faith and recognzied the error of Hybels et al without doing a survey. Warren and Hybels need to both ask forgiveness for the grave damage they caused on Christ Church. BTW- I had to leave 2 WCA influenced churches over this. My soul was famished attending there and I was considered a trouble maker for voiceing my concerns.

In Christ
Bro. Jeremy

[Ed]

I haven't read the book yet but I have some thoughts on this. In particular they would address Jeremy's comment above. Stalled and dissatisfied people get that way because they expect the church to feed them. Wrong expectation. The church should prepare them to feed themselves. Hybel's video makes this clear. You need to watch both videos to get the full picture.

To brother Jeremy - we live in a country that has the most ample resources for spiritual growth and you are famished? Eat something dude. If you don't know how to feed yourself, own it, and ask someone to teach you how to eat. Hebrews 5:11-14

[Joe B]

No need to come crashing down on Hybels, et al. They didn't invent the "program driven church", they just perfected it. WC knockoff churches are plastic bananas, not pursuing a vision but just striving to get big.

I disagree with Ed that "dissatisfied people" are sitting around waiting to be fed. Maybe some, but don't you remember the circles rising to the right? They are the Christ centered people. THEY are dissatisfied, WC thinks, because the church doesn't "meet their needs." I think otherwise.

What these folks "need" is to leave the nest. They are not fit to be a cog in Bill's machine, they need to minister according to the grace God has given them. Churches whose goal is to grow endlessly try to keep all the kernels of wheat in the one big fat basket. The grains need to fall to the ground. let 'em.

Get your vision bigger than being big. Colonize Chicagoland instead of just trying to get them all in programs.

If you get too many blackbirds roosting in one roost, they all start to starve. The best roost in Tennessee will be littered with dead birds if none of them move on.

[Peter Fong]

In our western culture whenever we see a problem, we want to fix it. Once we fix a problem, we discover anothter problem. This is how churches get distracted and become busy in solving problems instead of paying attention to God.

I hope what Willow Creek and other churches discover from their findings is that a church cannot be 'everything' for 'everyone'. Big churches has advantages and disadvantages, so does small churches. We all work together for the Kingdom. Big churches will always have an advantage in drawing seekers and new believers. Small churches has the advantage of discipling someone on a one to one basis. You look at most of the great Christian leaders and you'll see them coming out of small churches verses big ones.

Each churh must recognize it's strength and see how God is using them in that manner and learn to be content with that. If they choose to change, fine. But be prepare to fall short in other areas. A church cannot be perfect in everything it does. We cannot even come close to fixing everything and meeting everyone's needs. But regardless of our weaknesses, God's Kingdom is still moving forward because God has already planted the seed and it's growing into a big tree.

[Kristy]

Many churches are passionately asserting that Reveal is not revealing. Why do we assume that it is an “either/or” answer – that Reveal simply is full of insight or it isn’t? In my opinion, its value will vary for every church. Some churches may have already figured out how to teach spiritual disciplines and promote individual responsibility for spiritual development – empowering outreach in the more mature segments of their congregation. Others have room for improvement. I believe Reveal may be a message about getting back on track for churches that may have veered off course a bit – perhaps over emphasizing worship and front-end seeker ministry to the neglect of the more mature segments (think of the Sally Morganthaler insights about worship-driven churches). Reveal is a message about getting back on track for the churches that were off track with respect to use of resources. It surely won’t apply in the same way to all of our churches. Many won’t need the lessons from Reveal to assess how their resources are growing God’s kingdom. For others – I think Reveal will serve as a strong catalyst for change. The question is – Where do we fit? Where do you fit? Can Reveal data help your church or not?

[ralandis]

I have never been to Willow Creek or know much about it. I heard a comment on the radio about the reveal website and was curious enough to check it out. I was saddened to hear you say that you need to complete more surveys to ascertain how a church should work. You should spend the time more wisely reading the scriptures and allowing the Holy Spirit to "do church. You have unfortunately concluded if we talk to enough people and reinvent ourselves every so often we will somehow get it right. We will never get it right and that is the first step to getting it right. To find your life (or the life of a church) you have to lose it. I guess my question to you would be - Do you believe that God has a plan better than you could ever imagine? Do you think that you have to help Him? The only way that He asks us to help is to fully depend on Him. So simple, yet so hard.

[Bro. Charles]

In our fellowship the people who are "At the top" so to speak in their walk with the Lord Jesus Christ ARE being fed by the Holy Spirit, through God's Word, prayer, and fellowship.
I am confused to see that you are now attempting to tailor another program to fit the "Needs" of a group of people that, well, are not really growing all that much.
I have been in programs oriented Churches and learned my lesson years ago - programs are not the end all. Our fellowship does not bend to the seeker - we feed the saints, and thusly a strange phenomenon is taking place - Growth in numbers is being matched with equal growth in spirituality!
Prayer and the ministry of God's Word are our responsibility - building the Church is His.
Praying for you,
Bro. Charles
II Timothy 2:1-4

[Rick Carr]

As I read through the blog post & replies and have viewed Bill's & Greg's videos today, I see Greg making a distinction between those who are "stalled" and those who are "dissatisfied." I think your description of the different levels of growth, your 5 circles are pretty accurate.

The believers Greg described as "closer to Christ" or "centered on Christ" do tend to be "dissatisfied." Some may raise concerns about "being fed", but I think that's because that's the prevailing jargon with which they're familiar. In reality, to be mature, they must have studied God's Word for themselves, and applied what they read and some of the things they were taught in church in their personal lives. They have in fact become self-feeders to the point that they are just no longer challenged by the same old message that's directed at pre- and baby Christians.

More significant than that, however, is the fact that they do know they are responsible for living the Christian life themselves. They are ready to be Christians, and the church (as a whole, not just WCCC) doesn't really give them a way to do that. It gives them programs and events. It tries to do everything, even evangelism and being "seeker friendly," on a large scale. But the individual Christian is not equipped to be a Christian individual.

What you have found through your extensive survey could probably have been discovered years earlier by talking to some of those "dissatisfied" mature believers. I don't know about Willow Creek, but most churches I've observed think those people are just trouble makers who think they're so "mature in Christ" that they challenge the church leadership. I'm sure some come across that way. But I dare say most are just acting on the truth of Scripture regarding their position as a contributing member of the body, and are voicing heartfelt concerns.

In addition, they see their lost neighbors, who will never enter a church - not even a seeker friendly one. And it drives them nuts that they are too busy, being involved in all the events and programs that the church has come up with to engineer something that's called "the Christian life," to spend time just being a Christian influence in the lives of those lost neighbors.

It should not come as a surprise that so many are leaving the institutional/traditional church in favor of just "being a Christian" and are finding "church" in fellowship with other believers in other contexts. It's only a shame that the church leadership has not been willing to receive insight from these "mature believers" but has instead chosen to let them go, or worse, has often sent them away.

Greg, I commend you for recognizing that these are indeed mature believers who are becoming dissatisfied. Tap into that maturity.

[Gerry S]

It seems like many are missing the boat.

Seeker sensitive is not wrong. We still need to attract the unsaved to our churches. Many of the "old ways" of doing church don't do that. All that this research is revealing is that we also have to make sure we have way to help our more mature Christians continue the journey.

The book totally connected with me because I have been dissatisfied with preaching/teaching in churches for a number of years. However, rather than turn away, I am helping lead/serve others in my church, and that is exciting me.

[Marcelo]

One think I truly don't get is:

Why is church retention and growth viewed in a business mentality? Why do we have to ask the church people what is working or not working for them? As if we have to change the truths of God to accommodate people who frankly have absolutely no idea how to live their lives... just look at how many people live immoral lives inside the church and don't even care...

I honestly think that this work of figuring out all these problems with the structure and the mentality of church outreach are BOGUS if they are not scripture centered.

I haven't heard a single bible quote in this new "quest" to find the right answer... do you want a right answer?

Get on your knees, confess your sins and ask God to lead your life, then dig into scripture and devote yourself to constant and deep/meaningful study.

What you find out will be startling:

Matthew 28:19-20 - Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, TEACHING THEM TO OBSERVE ALL THAT I COMMANDED YOU.

Luke 24:46-47 - Thus it is written, that the Christ should suffer and rise again from the dead the third day; and that REPENTANCE FOR FORGIVENESS OF SINS SHOULD BE PROCLAIMED IN HIS NAME TO ALL THE NATIONS.

I John 5:3-4 - For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome. FOR WHATEVER IS BORN OF GOD OVERCOMES THE WORLD; and this is the victory that has overcome the world--our faith.

Teach people to repent from their sins, turn to God and live a life of prayer and commitment to Him... You'll have the happiest congregation on earth and the most willing people to go out and make other disciples.

SIMPLE AS THAT... all it takes is the scriptures, not a multi-million dollar market research, fancy drama, modern worship, business-minded talks, feel-good messages...

JUST CHRIST AND HIM CRUCIFIED.

[Scott]

I agree with Rick Carr's comments. I would further suggest that as written to the church in Ephesus in Revelation 2:4, perhaps we all should examine ourselves as the global church to see if we have forsaken our first love.

An ever improving, maturing and ultimately reflecting personal relationship with Jesus Christ should be a primary goal of every believer regardless of which physical building or body of believers an individual associates with. Since every person (believer and nonbeliever) is located at a different place along the relationship with Jesus Christ continuim, a goal of every church should perhaps be to commit to try and help every believer move up the continum to an ever increasing personal relationship and ultimate obedience to and reflection of Jesus Christ. Of course, only the Holy Spirit knows where each individual truly is in their spiritual walk at any given time.

Many dissatsified church believers indeed are self feeders due in part because the church has not met the deeper needs of these people. Some do leave the church and/or become stalled. Some seek other churches, while others walk away from Sunday mornings altogether. The reality of course is that only Jesus will ever meet our needs. A key is that a passionate love and appreciation for who Jesus is and what he has done for us is the internal motivation that all mature believers have. This love propels these believers to self feed, study the scriptures on their own, have effective prayer lives, become involved with parachurch ministries, and continual strive to become more like Christ on a daily basis not just on Sundays or Wednesdays. They are not about programs, or appearances, but their own personal relationship with and obedience to Christ. Any church seeking to have more mature believers needs to understand this and better still take advantage of the passion that these individuals have for Jesus Christ.

[Jim Vieceli]

I would like all to consider two things. One I heard (I think) R.C. Sproul say which I will paraphrase. He said in our natural state as sinners, we DO NOT SEEK GOD. "There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God." (Romans 3:11) We only pursue the things of God after being born again.
Secondly, according to the word of God, the purpose of the church gathering is not evangelism. The church gathering is for building up and equipping believers to do the work of the ministry (Eph 4) which is evangelism among other things. No wonder the more mature, "centered" believers were feeling under challenged. IT IS YOUR JOB TO FEED THEM, TRAIN THEM and ENCOURAGE THEM!

[Barb Steely]

It is always amazing to ask questions.....exciting to see the fruit of listening to those we love. I would like to repeat a question earlier in this blog concerning the 'out of Sunday morning group'. It's been a decade since my husband and I resigned pastoring in the traditional sense and joined the millions now labeled 'the emerging church'(or a dozen different titles).
Is there a place for us on this survey? We still meet, minister and yearn for deeper relationship with those around us and especially with our Lord. I would say the fruit of our ministry actually has increased in this past decade vs. the previous two decades in ministry.
Even if there is not a place for those of us in this category, we are excited to see this endeavor and may God bless you in your efforts.

[Ian]

Hi Greg,
Fascinating stuff, and good on you for being prepared to share it. The trick is going to be identifying the right interpretation.
From what it seems to say, congratulations on providing an environment where people can walk in and find God; not only that, but grow in their knowledge of him. I'd guess the issue your data identifies is that they seem to be growing to maturity... and then nothing. What do the centred people think is going to help? Going off eg Jn 4:34 I would guess the issue is empowering them to get out and go for it.

[Matt Wolf]

Greg, unless I missed it, do you realize that you didn't refer once to any passage of Scripture in the 13 minute video. If you want to be effective for Christ and His church, wouldn't you want to at least see what your "boss" has to say about it rather than devising a new model to deal with your current findings? I fear that you are not learning from your church's past self-admitted failures. Please, I beg of you--especially in light of the huge influence your church has had on other churches world-wide--STOP!

As Gerry S said: "Get on your knees, confess your sins and ask God to lead your life, then dig into scripture and devote yourself to constant and deep/meaningful study."

[Mark Borgetti]

I often wonder what my own mainline denomination (which is in decline by hundreds of thousands) would fine if they were bold enough to present and learn from a similar survey. My guess is that the findings would be a huge wake up call for my denomination as well as others. I commend Willow for sharing what they found; once again being completely transparent ... sharing from their successes and mistakes.

[K. Fung]

Hi Greg,

Nice job on listening to the Holy Spirit. I don't have any answers for you, but perhaps Neil Cole may be able to help. You mentioned radically changing the way church is done . . . that's what Neil has done. Actually, it's not new at all. He stole it from the New Testament, esp. Acts. You should check it out.

K. Fung

[Jeff Pankratz]

I dont think the answer is necessarily to interview church members on what they think their need is, or what works (or is not working) for them. This pragmatism is what got us into this problem.

Bottom line, leaders need to lead, and equip others to lead. The segments of our church families who are frustrated in my 8 years of being in the same church, are the people who should be leading or teaching.

Instead of equipping these folks with serious leadership development, and equipping them to be leaders in the marketplace, we ship them off to seminary or we simply ignore them.

We need leaders to equip the saints (Eph 4:12), and we instead of asking the people how to do it, let's unfold God's Word as it applies to developing leaders, teachers, evangelists, etc. Only the Father can truly reveal Himself, so that people can be truly fed and minister to others (1 Sam 3)

A question I like to ask myself is if the church staff were all absent, could ministry easily carry on? Would there be worship leaders, teachers, evangelists with solid doctrine, mentors in the workplace, the poor and lonely taken care of? In my mind, that is the mark of a healthy church...would our ministry in our community carry on without us?

We need the Lord to reveal what is in the heart of man. He needs to reveal Himself to people like me who did not seek God or care much about him. (Isaiah 65:1) There is no one who seeks God (Romans 3:11). He must seek people, and His Holy Spirit must bring His conviction, and we must pray for this first.

Once our people are truly convicted of sin and their need for repentance, we will be changed and our churches will be changed. As we continue to repent from sin together, people will rise up with a hatred for this world and a love for sinners. And we will see people lead others to Jesus, and leaders leading by the voice of Jesus. All for the honor and glory of Jesus, and not our churches.

May we all continue to repent and believe (Mk 1:15)
JP, Lake Community Church, Alexandria MN

[Bob Bland]

I have been dismayed at the ministry aim of Willow Creek for years and, apparently, mistakenly was joyful to think you had finally seen the error of your ways and influence on the church of America. In my mind, there can only be one reason for turning Christ's church into a huge free entertainment center for unbelievers ("seekers")and forgetting about the function Christ assigned, of equipping and training. A market plan to attract numbers and dollars.

"Go feed yourselves"?? Where did that come from, certainly not from scripture. But then, according to the Bible, "seekers" don't even exist.

Sorry, WC, you have a long way to go to become a true church. I feel sorry for your members and the millions you have influenced over the years. They are missing so much of the truth of scripture. I sure hope they enjoy the entertainment in this life. Greg, sorry you don't see this misleading as sin.

[Victor]

Wow, this is quite a discussion. There is no "Christian Lite" at Willow. I have had the priveledge of listening to sermon's from Willow, and experiencing worship at Willow. It is God honoring, Christ centered, meaningful and deep. If only all the other churches I have visited in my life had the same depth in their preaching. May God continue to bless your endeavors to expand His kingdom, and grow them into maturity. I would guess that many believers there already take responsibility for their own spiritual growth....you can't walk out of there without wanting to know God more. God Bless You all! I hope the people who post on this blog remember to keep this blog from being cruel and judgemental. God knows the hearts of His servants.

[Matt]

I'm curious... How is supplying "personalized spiritual growth plans" different from the Spiritual Formation and medieval mysticism that during the middle ages obscured the gospel in the first place? And how much of it will be centered on the "feeder" rather than on the one who really feeds us?

I can't help but see the parallels here. When people turn inward on themselves, they often are already deep in some kind of spiritual formation plan, some self help book that purports to teach them how to have their best life now. If people are honest, they'll admit that a lot of that stuff isn't helping them at all.

Tell them about their shepherd! Teach them to hear his voice. Teach them the 50 ways of the cross! Send them out into the world absolved of their sins! Feed them their shepherd's body and blood!

If this is where Willow Creek goes, then I'm all for it. If all they do is put the responsibility on the people to self feed, it's just another way of putting people back under the law.

[Todd]

Something is not right... but it's not us???

I'm afraid this will continue to be the story. I don't know that you will be able to hear the answer until you put everything on the table before God. Including your presuppositions about "seeker friendly", numbers, big buildings, money, and controlling "Senior Pastors". Can you hear the answer? It may just be the exact opposite of everything you have been trying to do for years.

Humble your hearts. You can not make mature Christians, only Christ can do that. When you get out of the way, and let Him do the work. He will build something more incredible than you or any other group of men could ever build.

I would say crippling the faith of millions by going about church in a manner which is not scriptural is something to repent about.

[Joaquin]

Why all the anger? As leaders, we all feel we are doing church the right way ... and the next guy is doing it the wrong way. Why are we so arrogant to believe that the people in our congregations can't help us hear God's voice for insights?
The Bible does not present THE ONE WAY to do church. It appears Jesus allows us to do our best to serve Him ... our humble, limited best. And wee draw on the Spirit's power to lead our efforts.
Quit the attacking. Last I checked, the Bible says they will know us by our LOVE ... not by our anger.

[luke]

greg, i'm really glad you clarified those things. i really love how willow has put some much energy into helping the lost see jesus. i've been deeply impacted by that vision. i love how willow is willing to change and grow and admit growth areas. that speaks volumes.

one thought. hybels said in his video that the solution is to teach people to be self-feeding. but i wonder if it might be better said "to teach people to grow in community." it seems that spiritual growth happens mostly life on life: one person rubbing off on another. the big meetings don't allow much of that to happen. but the little ones do. is there a way to keep the "big service" as a place for seekers to investigate jesus and yet let "church" something be for the "mature." call the gathering of jesus followers in someone's house the "church" and call the thing we go to serve at on the weekend serving in an outreach to suburban america. certainly there are problems with that idea, but just what i'm throwing around from this....

[Don]

Hasn’t it been well documented that the needs-based, survey driven approach by Willow Creek is exactly why Willow Creek has been forced to rethink its approach in the first place? Will another survey-driven response fix the problem of the previous survey-driven programs?

Considering the hundreds of Biblical critiques of the seeker-sensitive approach available to the church, can Willow Creek honestly claim they were “shocked by the data?” (Bill Hybels). Surely Willow Creek was fully aware of the hundreds (thousands?) of objective Biblically based criticisms that predicted the inevitable outcome that this million dollar survey revealed? This survey is nothing to boast about. Willow Creek is not a corporation selling a product but a God mandated fellowship of believers tasked with proclaiming God’s truth in its entirety without reshaping or toning down the message to those who might be offended. It is, after all, a rather offensive message to hear one needs grace to live with God.

[Bernie Lutchman]

This is a fantastic discussion with the vast majority of entries in this Blog speaking God's Truth!! In our city, the two largest churches are Willow Creek Association churches. I will not name them, but the Lord knows them.
These churches are known more for their entertainment, their worship bands, hightech media youth groups and their Starbucks coffee than teaching the Truth! Which one of these do you think matters on Judgment Day! These places are the meeting places of the beautiful and well-to-do in our town. Some of their older Bible-based members are even leaving!
All these churches, by the tens of thousands, who are still being led off the cliff by WillowCreek's and Saddleback's man-made philosophies and strategies remind me of the Five foolish virgins who did not stock up on their oil (Matthew 25:1-13)while the Five Wise Virgin trimmed their lamps, while waiting for the Bridegroom.
At the midnight cry, when Jesus comes again, these Five Foolish Virgins from the modern Laodecian churches will not have a prayer. THEY WERE NEVER DISCIPLES OF HIS!
How horrible, my friends. We don't need programs, or more money, or more paraphrased Bibles....we need repentance...TRUE REPENTANCE before God, not admitting "mistakes"....we need to renounce our sins, turn from our wicked ways and SEEK THE FACE OF GOD!
Time is short and He will return...is the church ready?
Shalom

[B Snyder]

I agree with Bro. Charles & Gerry S. We attend a seeker sensitive church. There is a lot of videos, skits, etc. for seekers, it gets to the point you have to look elsewhere for the good solid teachings that are not given in our church on Sundays with the messages. I've been reading and learning so much more from John McArthur. The leaders have to follow the Holy Spirit in teaching the sheep. Many people have left and more to leave because of the absence of good solid teaching. The leadership is OK if this church is not for you and want to move on because of the lack of solid teaching. How sad!

[Past Creeker]

I came to Christ at and attended Willow Creek for 15 years starting in 1987, and was very involved in ministry there. I cannot think of a more motivating place in terms of infusing in me a hunger for God, worship, Bible study, prayer, community, small group, transparency, humility, openness, confession, etc. (and I've been to many churches since.) Nearly every ministry leader, staff, and volunteer there that I ever worked with was a tremendous model of humble, Christ centered servants who lived out their life and walk before us, which greatly motivated me, as well as regularly upheld the importance of spiritual disciplines and developing those on your own, as well as in community with others. So I'm not sure what all the talk is about, even in the Reveal book and discussions, with regards to Willow being a place that does NOT place emphasis on these areas of the Christian life. They most certainly do and it's modeled day in day out. One other important element to note that strangely, I don't find mentioned anywhere, is that yes, Willow's weekend services traditionally were "Seeker Services" - Christianity 101 as we called it. BUT - there are also the weekly New Community Services on Wed. nights where the body gathers to fully worship, as well as hear much more in depth Bible based teaching. This is NOT Christianity 101. It was always a part of the process that one could begin with the seeker services, and a next step was the New Community Service. This has changed a bit today I know as Willow has tried to make the weekend seeker service more holistic and rounded in it's design and challenge people on a deeper level - however that's where people are today in our post 9/11 society. They are more open to spiritual matters than society was in say the 80s and 90s. People have seen true evil now and are looking for "good."

Anyway, all I need know is my own testimony and experience. As the song says so well "I once was lost, but now am found." Praise God that I showed up on Willow's doorstep as young sinful man right out of college, very confused about the road I was on, and when there was little else I could find that spoke to or ministered to me in any relevant way or style that would grab my ears and attention and hold it there. I thank God for Bill Hybels and Willow - for the times in countless services when I laughed, cried, was deeply convicted over my own sin, challenged, rebuked, and cheered on. May Willow press on with the guidance of the Holy Spirit for many years to come.

[David Boots]

Something that HAS concerned me (as people have read, talked/translated, and even the Christianity Today article says), is that the words, “Willow Repents” are being used to replace a pastor’s honesty in saying, “we made a mistake and are correcting our course.” Seems a little strong to be translating into anything other than what was said (Hybels): “we made a mistake.”

This is a church that –ever since I first visited them in the late 80’s– has ALWAYS said OVER and OVER, “do NOT go home and do what we do HERE. This is WILLOW. This is Chicagoland. This is who God has placed in our neighborhood, and who He has called USE to be and to reach. Get inspired, learn from our mistakes, but do NOT assume that what WE do will work in YOUR church. Listen to God for THAT one!”

Yet, so many have wanted to be mini-Willows and ‘lil Bill’s. And NOW they are using phrases like, “Willow Repents.” The full (Leadership Summit) video gives a much better balance to the time, money, and effort they put into it to find out IF there people are growing spiritually (I cannot imagine ANY other church going to such ends to see if they are being effective in ministry), and being willing to adjust mid-stream to their changing demographic…and it certainly has changed since 1980.

I admire Willow and all that they have done to remain focused on what God is calling WILLOW to do, and at the same time, giving every pastor, church, and Willow-wanna-be the warning, “do NOT think that what you see here –and hear here– is what God wants you to copy at home.”

..............................
Back to the REVEAL process they are going through:
Willow chose to become this transparent to help other churches not make the same mistakes they did in not taking a measurement SOONER than they did, so as to make course corrections. NOW they have launched this survey, and the results of 30 churches (many are NOT Willow clones!) are all a part of this finding and all the same. Further, Willow is now planning to widen the research to several HUNDERED churches to get MORE information, and to help MANY of us gain the same insight they now have. And for that, they are mis-quoted as saying, “Willow Repents,” and wrong implications abound that they messed up, big time?

I believe if ANYONE, it could be WILLOW CREEK that could be saying, “we told you so…”

[Nikki Colon]

Good Morning,

May the peace of the Lord be with you this morning.

As I watched your video as well as the video for Bill Hybels, I felt compelled to email you. Since then I have begun to pray for this Ministry. As I thought about all the things said, scripture comes to mind, as we should filter everything when it comes to the sheep. There is much I can say about the Willow Creek Ministry in my thoughts and concerns, but the Lord will make a time for it. Please consider reading Matt. 13 as the Lord explained to the disciples about the groups leadership would encounter. As the word says, there is nothing new under the sun. My husband and my testimony are that when we came to serve the Lord, 5 years ago, we engaged on our own, through the Spirit working in us, into classes that explained our faith according to the word of God. The Holy Spirit was faithful to encourage and instruct along with the faithful teachers who called our home once a week between classes and prayed with us, fellowshipped and encouraged us. No one had to ask us to volunteer. It was the desire of our heart and still is. Once we were shown that the Lord wanted us to read the word daily, that is was our daily bread, we did our best to obey knowing it would bear much fruit, as the word says, for us and others.

As I consider mega churches I think of Moses as he led the people out of Egypt and how many problems he encountered along the way to the promise land. But there was one thing he did consistently, he went to God in prayer and God was faithful to guide an instruct him. To give him leaders that would help him in the leading of the flock. Even to provide successors chosen by God himself to continue the battle when Moses and Aaron finished their journey.

I plead with you today that you would go to the Lord in prayer and in faith ask Him to guide this ministry. Remember that all through the wilderness the people complained, so while I do not think a survey is a bad thing, who or what will your decisions then be guided by? Acts 5:29-39 warns and encourages us that if what we are doing in ministry, as the apostles were, is of God, those who oppose you will find themselves fighting against God. But those who are doing ministry in their own strength and wisdom will fail. I will continue to pray that the Lord will transform this ministry and that He alone would be in the center of it.

Your sister in Christ,
Nikki

[Melissa Senger]

It will be nice for Willow to start listening to those of us that attend Willow and have been unhappy with it for years. Just when something is working, they change it. Neighborhoods isn't working but they keep cramming it down our throats. They eliminated the ministry I was involved in (Axis for 20-somethings) and tried to get the 300-500/weekly participants to attend Willow weekends instead. The result? Almost every single person I was acquainted with through Axis went to different churches. My feeling has always been this: If the numbers are down, the answer is not to cut a ministry and force everyone to attend weekend services. Instead, look at your weekend services and ask what you are doing to make people not want to be there. There is NO worship, little depth of teaching, and really, does not meet the needs of Christians wanting to grow in Christ. Did you guys really need "REVEAL" to catch on to this?

[B. Moore]

I spent 13 of the last 15 years as a church planter in Latin America, and I currently attend a WCA church in Raleigh, NC. I have taught seminary courses in evangelism and church planting, and I have also made many mistakes in my well-intended efforts at both. With regards to the "Seeker Church Model" and the identifiable weaknesses in some aspects of that model, I would encourage those who wish to "throw the baby out with the bath water" (or who never liked the baby!) to think again. My own failures over the years were usually rooted in a hyper-dedication to particular styles and forms of church that I thought were Biblical. Inherent in that kind of thinking was a significant disregard for the perspectives and context (cultural and otherwise) of those that I was attempting to reach with the gospel. Paul makes clear in 1 Cor. 9 that such an egocentric approach to evangelism can and does "hinder the gospel."

The fundamental lesson that I have learned in cross-cultural missions (evangelism and church planting) is to be careful to distinguish between the "package" and the "content". A failure to do so can be fatal to any efforts to impact the particular people group or population segment that defines your mission field. Packaging is essentially an issue of culture, NOT DOGMA! If the package (both personal and ecclesiastical styles and forms) serves to offend or distract the lost in your mission field, it will be very difficult for them to ever consider the "content", the immutable gospel of Jesus Christ and the call to follow Him as a disciple. The Scriptures do NOT teach us how to "do church." It provides us with the foundational principles and precepts, but not the ABC's of the style and form that a local church should take. This must change from culture to culture and age to age. Some churches and Christians that refuse to periodically adjust their packaging often have confused the biblical distinctions between package and content. In other words, the packaging has become more or less synonymous with the content. Most, however, simply strive to maintain their particular packaging because it has come to define their Christian experience...much more so than they realize. In these cases, a significant change in style threatens deep-rooted emotions associated with their faith.

In my opinion, the research behind the Reveal book simply uncovers a weakness in the discipleship portion of the "content" in many churches. This is certainly nothing new to the evangelical church, but neither is it a repudiation of the entire model of church that Willow Creek has been developing over the last 30 years.

[Past seeker goer]

Count us among the people who left our local community church that practiced basically this same model. What was missing for us?

The complete word of God was not being preached, especially the controversial subjects that aren't politically correct. Do not be afraid to preach the word of God fully and deeply-it will be effective. You are not offending people, but God uses his word to convict people so that they are brought to repentence and see their need for Him.

Accountability-we had none. We left church happy and loving God, loving people and with no conviction most of the time.

Repentence-how can people see their need for Jesus if they don't see their own sin. It's not just about a little prayer. Do some of these people now believe that they are saved and they may really not be!

Passionate people-who share their love of the word of God and how Jesus and the Holy Spirit works every day in their lives.

What we did find-people who didn't really know what Christianity means were leading small groups. We joined a small group to get into deeper discussion and for growth and ended up being teachers to the small group leaders.

There is hope! Although it is not close to home, we found a church where the word of God is preached with intensity and truth! We found people with genuine love for each other while having a genuineness about them, and an excitement for their church and serving God that gives others the desire to jump in and get involved but with the main goal of reaching people for Christ and then helping them grow in their walk-discipleship. Everything is focused on growing in your faith and helping others to grow in theirs.

We found youth on fire for the Lord and for serving Him, and who seek out the new kids in the group to help them feel welcome. Kids who also worship with all their hearts and you can see that they too have a genuine faith.

This is not a cult or a flashy church with the most current worship music, but just regular people who want to hear the truth, who want the church to be real, whose hearts break for those who are lost and who want to see the Holy Spirit working in our nation and among His people.

[Connie Cookman]

Greg, I have only read through REVEAL a couple of times, but I was struck by some of the findings in the "stalled" group. This area speaks to christians being seduced into pornography, ungodly relationships, etc. I recently completed a compelling Bible Study by Beth Moore called "When Godly people do ungodly things". (She also has a book by the same title.) Beth suggests these are not unexplainable accidents, but direct and pointed attacks of the enemy. If you aren't already familiar with this resource, it may lead to insights to help Christians recognize and avoid falling into these traps and it certainly gives Biblical counsel for restoration. Thanks to you and all the rest who have worked so hard to uncover critical issues and then work together in unity with the body of Christ to find the answers. May God continue to bless your efforts! Connie Cookman

[Andy Rowell]

I like Willow Creek's ministry model. But sociologist Bradley Wright has reviewed Reveal and found some major methodological shortcoming which undermine the whole study:

http://brewright.blogspot.com/2007/11/review-of-reveal-where-are-you-by-greg.html

Though Willow does not need to repent for its ministry strategy (though we could all repent for our ministry strategies to some extent - whose is perfect?), those who published this sociologically unsophisticated research probably need to apologize to seeker-sensitive church proponents everywhere. It is hard to say if Willow's reputation will ever recover from the tidal wave of publicity saying that the Reveal quantitative data discredits Willow's approach.

Still, all is not lost. The idea of doing quantitative research is a good one. But next time Reveal needs to do it right. Those who are part of Reveal need to do a serious crash course in American religious sociology: Christian Smith, Mark Chaves, Robert Wuthnow, Scott Thumma, and Nancy Ammerman. I am doing some doctoral research in this area and would like to be of help if I can be.

I'm glad to hear from some insiders that you have been talking with some theologians about revising the questions.

Grace and peace,

andy

Andy Rowell
Th.D. Student
Duke Divinity School
Blog: http://www.andyrowell.net/

[Teddy]

Yep, spin control.

[Gene Bak]

Bill and Greg. I am a 75-yr old retiree living in Florida (from Minnesota) now full time. I was "born again" while in the military 52 years ago prox. I grew up in a church that seemed to "miss" the cross and "does church" the way it has done it for 100+ years. Subsequent to my conversion and marriage to a beautiful Christian lady, we have attended, belonged to, and visited numerous churches of misc denominations or non-denom.affiliations.

We were members of a good denomination started by Swedes. Approximately 20 years ago, this denomination, tho Evangelical, was "dead in the water."(my opinion). Their way of doing church was "not effective." Conversion numbers were low-only small number of churches were being established. Then came a breath of fresh air-Bill Hybels and Willow Creek CC. A new group of young pastors within the denom. started praying together and the number of new churches within the denomination increased ten-fold. Most of the new churches are seeker churches. A new day had Dawned!

Our own children became excited about church. Today they are excited leaders (our grandkids too) in three WCC style churches (3 different denominations.) Their church communities are fabulous places for them.

But I must add, many of our contemporaries (ages 60+) don't get it. Many of them say "I want to be fed." They forget that if you get no seekers to the foot of the cross, the church dies. WCC churches do that. We commend Bill and Greg for the "minor adjustment" to ministry of telling "younger duffers" they need to take charge of their spiritual health in stage 3. Rick Warren's church with 101, 201, 301, etc. is a great way of helping churces do that. (We appreciate how Bill and Rick Warren have worked together to further Christ's Church!) Remember lots of old duffers who have spent years "being fed" in the Bible (but perhaps have forgotten how to laugh) are just as apt to have indiscretions as less schooled. We are all sinners.

May I conclude by saying "Thank you Bill Hybels". You have enriched our family and Jesus' church tremendously. Telling old duffers you must be responsible sometime for your own spiritual growth is a refreshing activity.

The reaction of many to your new approach is interesting. It goes along with how you define "God's Grace" in your book "The God You're Looking For." We can say when someone wrongs us or disagrees: "Our reaction is JUSTIFIED" (tho mean); or "we could show MERCY (not quite as mean); or "We can show GRACE (like Jesus would). That's real "spiritual Growth", Old Duffers. Let's support Bill and WCC by showing "grace" to a true hero in the church around the world.

[P. Chris]

"As of yet we as the corporate Body of Christ in America have not even confessed our human efforts as sin - as idolatry in the eyes of our Lord, let alone begun the process of truly repenting from them and learning what it really looks like to trust Him with everything. If this repentance does not take place, He will have no choice but to continue the judgment of this nation."

This is a quote from the final section of my full comment which was posted under the "Feed Your Mind" section. I had written this prior to reading the following statements written by Pastor Greg:

"Willow Repents?

The Leadership Journal blog started with this question, and the answer is NO. Repenting, in my mind, deals with confessing sin. There is absolutely no sin involved in this deal."

When I read this, the holy fear of the Lord gripped my heart and I felt great sorrow for this response. One of our largest problems in the Body of Christ in America is our failure to recognize that human effort on behalf of God's Name is not merely a sin - but in fact has so angered our Lord in times past that it has been the cause of great judgment throughout human history. (1 Samuel 13:7-14 - the men are scattering, Samuel isn't there, Saul turns to the Lord and offers a sacrifice when everyone else is running. He's a hero for doing something right? Yet, it was this seemingly "godly" action that cost him the kingdom because it disobeyed God's specific instructions.)

Until we begin to identify our human efforts "for God" as sin, as idolatry (turning to anything/anyone other than to God for life/guidance/strength/the way forward etc...) then we will not make the necessary adjustments of scrapping all our plans for God (our "godly idols")and returning to a place where we follow Him one step at a time. No one I know seems to have communicated this basic truth more clearly than Henry Blackaby (especially in his workbook - Experiencing God - a must read for all). Please, I encourage us all, myself included, to scrap all our plans for God, humble ourselves, and come back to a place where He is Lord of all. (Lord over all our thinking, all our words, all our actions) It is this and this alone that can save this nation from the spiritual sickness that continues to spread and produce such devastation that we are being ruined from the inside out. As the priests of the land, we must stand up and take accountability for the spiritual state of our nation.

[Brother Greg]

Follow the money. I think Greg sums it up when he finishes by asking churches to participate in the new survey and they won't even charge you! How generous. Willow Creek will spin the new free data and start charging churches for the next best greatest way to do the big show. Willow Creek once again proves that there is good money in Jesus. May I suggest you sell it all, every bit of land, every building, every scrap of anything that every was or will be Willow Creek and go. Go be the church...don't do church. Miracles will happen.

[Connie]

Dear Greg and Cally,

I have just finished reading REVEAL and found it most interesting. I am volunteer coordinator for our seniors group in a seeker-friendly church. I often hear comments of dissastifaction; i.e. loud, noisy music and shallow Fellowship studies.

Your question;" How does the ministry help someone grow?" hit hard. Our seniors ministry provides fellowship meetings with dinner and speaker, trips and fun outings. Our hope is to reach people by these activities,and they will be drawn to the church and our life groups through these activities. It's not working well, although I know this is a pattern for many churches.

It appears to me that our seniors group would be the ideal group to downplay their personal "fun" and begin discipling (mentoring) new believers and other seniors. I do believe that the senior group in seeker-friendly churches has been entirely overlooked or dumbed-down. What a shame! Seniors are retiring earlier with good health, spiritual maturity, desire to serve, time and resources. They should be fully recognized and encouraged to serve to the height of their capabilities.

Please add this to your research.

Thank you.

[Mark Woita]

Jesus said, "upon these two commandments depend the entire Law and the Prophets." -Matt 22:40

What are these two commandments?
1. Love God ("the great and foremost commandmenet" - Matt 22:37-38)
2. Love people ("your neighbor as yourself - Matt 22:39).

Again, "upon these two commandments depend THE WHOLE LAW AND THE PROPHETS". Wow!

Therefore, it seems that God's plan is for a church's PRIMARY focus should be on learning, and helping others learn, HOW TO LOVE GOD ... individually and corporately. Then to do so.

Secondarily, out of a heart/sould/mind that is filled and transformed (Rom 12:2) by a love-relationship with Him (resulting in the fruit of the Spirit), THEN we can love people (all groups/categories) as Jesus would have us love them ... utilizing all the gifts and talents He has bestowed upon believers.

The scriptures must be central to this process (teaching, preaching, Bible study). How else can one come to know truth, or know Him, or what to believe and how to live?

Discipleship is people loving people by teaching and modeling how to 1.) love God and 2.) how to love people ... according to the scriptures. Paul: "And the things you have heard from me in the presence of many witnsesses, these entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also." II Tim 2:2

"We love because He first loved us." I Jn 4:19