The Truth About REVEAL

Friends,

I’m thrilled to see the high level of interest and energy behind the blogosphere comments about REVEAL. But I’ve read enough postings to think that it might be helpful to provide a few facts on three issues that keep coming up. Trust me. I’m not into “spin control” here. I just want to fill in some gaps.

1. It’s Not About Willow

• REVEAL’s findings are based on thirty churches besides Willow. In all thirty churches, we’ve found the six segments of REVEAL’s spiritual continuum, including the Stalled and Dissatisfied segments. And these churches aren’t all Willow clones. We’ve surveyed traditional Bible churches, mainline denominations, African-American churches and churches representing a wide range of geographies and sizes. Right now we’re fielding the survey to 500 additional churches, including 100 international churches. So, while REVEAL was born out of a Willow research project in 2004, the findings are not exclusive to Willow Creek.

2. Willow Repents?

• The Leadership Journal blog started with this question, and the answer is NO. Repenting, in my mind, deals with confessing sin. There is absolutely no sin involved in this deal. Just good, old fashion learning. What you are seeing is a set of leaders coming to grips with some new facts and deciding to do something about it. This is nothing new for us here at Willow. We are passionately committed to learning. Redeeming this broken world through the love and power of Jesus Christ is just too important for us not to be in a constant state of learning. We’ve always been a church in motion and REVEAL is just another example of Willow trying to be open to God’s design for this local church.

3. Is Willow Re-thinking its Seeker Focus?

• Simple answer – NO. Hybels would say that Willow is not just seeker-focused. We are seeker-obsessed. The power of REVEAL’s insights for our seeker strategy is the evangelistic strength uncovered in the more mature segments. If we can serve them better, the evangelistic potential is enormous, based on our findings.

I hope this was helpful. In any event, I’m enjoying following the dialogue. Keep it up! And let me know if you have any questions you’d like me to address.

Greg Hawkins

Comments

[etk]

As a disclaimer, I am not a Willow Creek "person" or "disciple". I have seen what I thought was good and so-so when I have looked at Willow Creek through the years.

I think that as you probably know alot of things that are being addressed here are "issues" that people have "held against" Willow Creek for a long time...

The sad thing, to me, is to see people say "See I told you so!" I MUST admit there was a flicker of that in my heart, and THEN I felt the LORD say "At least they realize what the problem is and are trying to take care it."

As I was typing I REALIZED that 1 Corinthians 13:6 "love rejoices not in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth" would apply here. How about everybody say "Yeah! They are trying to take care of a blind spot." I would think THAT would be sign of the spiritual growth we are supposed to be talking about...

[Kerry Denten]

Hi Greg,

What's happening with Willow and Reveal is truly one of the single most encouraging stories I have heard in the last five years or more of my journey.

Upon watching the full 13 minute version of your presentation, I was moved to tears to think that the very things I have seen in the Spirit and have been believing for God to change in the contemporary church, are finally happening .. and potentially on such a grand scale.

We need to pray for you all. You'll need all the help and protection you can get to make this transition complete and intact, knowing how "dissatisfied" our enemy will be with you.

Having said that, there is only one caviet I'd like to place on my aforestated comments.

That is, I believe it would have been wiser to have seen some proven fruit coming from the changes and new practices you're basing on your findings both within Willow Creek and the 30 churches surveyed, before you put together the slick package to "reveal" the research.

I know you guys are excited about your findings, and I am too. But growing fruit takes time and it's clear you guys are still learning as you go in regard to what you're seeing in your research.

The reason for my saying this is, while your research seems right and has clearly made a massive impact at Willow, you must remember that if your conclusions and methods of application are wrong, then this becomes yet another failed program marketed by another mega-church, leaving a lot of hopeful people shattered.

God forbid that this should be the case here!

I'll be praying for you guys. More power to your journey ahead! We'll be looking for good fruit.

[David]

I was stunned and excited when a friend referred me to your video. I've referred several hungry pastors to it over the past week. I have your book on order.

I notice that since the video, you've added a sixth category: the "Dissatisfied." You had already commented that a significant subset of the "Christ-Centered" were considering leaving the church - at least in the sense of withdrawing from regular fellowship with the local church. I would not be surprised if a significant subset of the "Dissatisfied" group would either be gone from church or seriously considering it.

So here's my point: your survey donesn't inclulde any of the "out of the Sunday morning" group. If George Barna is right in Revolutions, this portion of the "Church" is being missed in your surveys and your data. Are you making adjustments for this lack in your data?

Please keep up the good work! Thanks!

[Joanna Ng]

Hi Greg,
It is indeed encouraging to see this "Reveal" initiative by Willow as an authentic way to lead.

While it is great to start realizing how critical it is to help Christians to be self-fed in our walk with Christ, i have to say that this is FAR from sufficient.

I strongly believe the necesscity in adding the following:
a) Churches must produce disciples who are not just "self fed" but also "MAKE OTHER DISCIPLES" i.e. producing other disciples by discipling others. This is how Christ commissioned us in Matt 28:18-20. Missing the "Reproducing attribute" misses the essence of discipleship. Not taking Christ's great commission (of making disciples of all nations) seriously to the heart of the church is missing the whole point. A serious in depth Bible study on Matt 28:18-20 and on Discipleship is very much warranted.

b) Disciples are followers of Christ who are obedience to Christ by taking up our cross daily to follow Him. Complete OBEDIENCE & SACRIFICE is the KEY to follower of Christ. Disciples of Christ must be able to hear the voice of CHrist (John 10:27: Christ said: My sheep hear my voice and I know them) and follow in obedience.

c) The Power of the Holy Spirit should have been the center Figure for this whole reengineering -- and seems to be missing from the center stage. I believe the Holy Spirit is onto something big with North American Christians who are mostly self-centric instead of Christ centered. Much prayers for revival is needed. I pray that Prayers for the Power of the Holy Spirit takes priority over more research and survey (which is important but only second important).

Sincerely pray that the Holy Spirit will bring true repentance of our self-centered-ness and steer us to let God's passion of the Great Commission be what we live for! If we do this not by our effort but by counting on the power of the Holy Spirit -- HE can change the world through us and our submission to CHRIST! (A Totally different thing from we tried to change the world)..

Blessings to you all.

[Joanna Ng]

The whole point about "Church" is NOT ABOUT how its attendees' needs be met .. (it might be important but not the point about church) -- this is a "consumer-centric" approach.

The whole point about "church" is how God can use each of the local congregation to accomplish His Kingdom business of make disciples of all nations -- Christ started with only 12 disciples -- so the question to ask
is "HOW CAN CHURCH PRODUCE CHRIST DISCIPLES WHO ARE ABLE TO PRODUCE other CHRIST DISCIPLES?"
-- Knowing that no one can change another one's life, only the Holy Spirit can..
-- What makes church exciting is when disciples obey to go and make disciples, as commissioned by Christ, and first hand experience the power of the Holy Spirit to change lives .. and we are just in awe with the Power of Salvation!

[Wayne Petts]

I just watched your video on the Reveal website and I would like to offer a few comments.

Both Willow Creek and Saddleback Church have both had an overwhelming and similar influence on the church in the United States and abroad. I have experienced that influence in several churches. I believe that you are correct in saying that a lot of your programs probably are not very effective in growing disciples into maturity. The problem is that you probably (I don't know for sure) developed most of those programs based on research, although perhaps a more informal form of research. It appears to me that you are about to make the same mistakes over again. You have said that your programs are not effective in growing disciples into maturity, but it appears that you are only going to do more research to come up with new programs to replace the old programs.

I noticed that at the end of the video you said this: "our dream is that we fundamentally change the way we do church.....that we replace it with new insights, informed by research and rooted in scripture".

The best way to do church is to do church the way God intends for His people to do church. If you want to know how God intends for you to do church you should ask God, not a bunch of people who attend a church that by your own admission is not very effective in growing disciples into maturity.

I would like to suggest that instead of gaining new insights "informed by research" you should save the research money and gain new insights informed by scripture. What is an insight "rooted in scripture" but "informed by research". I do not understand this concept. For an insight to be rooted in scripture it must be informed by scripture. An insight informed by research may be decorated with scripture, but an insight can only be rooted in scripture if it is informed by scripture.

Colossians 2:8 says: Be careful that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deceit based on human tradition, based on the elemental forces of the world, and not based on Christ.

I suggest that gaining insight based on research that seeks answers from surveys of men may result in human philosophy and empty deceit based on human tradition as opposed to insight based on Christ.

I suggest that you and the rest of your leadership go away somewhere private where no one can disturb you. Take only your Bibles, get on your faces and seek God through His Word, which is sufficient, and don’t get up again until you have new insight that is based on Christ and not on human philosophy or else you may be deceived for another decade. If you want to do church right you must do it God’s way and you can only discover how to do that in God’s Word.

I pray that I have not offended you or anyone else who reads this, but if that is the case so be it.

[Joanna Ng]

Discipleship relationship through up-close and personal authentic modeling is the most effective way to produce spiritual growth in others, not church program.

Church programs are at best in fostering the building of effective personal discipleship relationships.

The "personal discipleship" approach has proven to work from the Bible:
- Jesus spending 3 yrs with the twelve 24x7 (see how He modeled servanthood in John 13)
- example of Paul, Silas, Timothy in 1 Thess 1:5-6: "You know how we lived among you for your sake. You became imitators of us and of the Lord"
- Paul in 1 Corinthians 4:16 said "imitate me"

It started with those obedient disciples who were filled with the power of salvation and the power of the Holy Spirit -- teaching others to obey all the commands of Christ (Matt 28:20) -- as guided by the Holy Spirit.

There was no expensive fancy program nor research of any kind.

Why would mature Christians want to leave the church at all if they are being used by God in the heavenly kingdom business of making disciples?
Why would anyone leave a church that is evident of the power of the Holy Spirit in salvation?
Acts 2 church exemplified these two principles, which was the founding church model for Willow.

[Mike]

Hi Greg and Cally

I just finished reading Reveal. Great stuff. Profound stuff. This is the kind of thing that will change the trajectory of any church whose leadership team is humble enough to receive honest feedback and courageous enough to make changes based on that feedback.

I'm sure you've looked at other instruments for measuring the heart (e.g., Christian Life Profile, Barna's metrics, etc.), but you may also be interested in some of the online surveys at www.Assess-Yourself.org, since these surveys estimate people's spiritual condition (Christian character, love for God, worldview, etc.).

Thanks again for your ministry. I look forward to to seeing where God takes this!

[Robert Gurgel]

Thank you for the opportunity to watch and comment on the "13 Minute" video.

What works? God's Word works! God says, "My Word will not return to me empty, but will accomplish what I desire and achieve the purpose for which I sent it..." (Isaiah 55:11)

Our goal, as people whom the Holy Spirit through Word and Sacrament has made disciples, is to find any and all God-pleasing ways to confront the world with the Word so that the Spirit may bring them to faith in Christ which makes them disciples too. That's the "great commission" of Christ "...baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you." (Matthew 28:19b,20a)'

God help me (and you?)to see my sorry self through Greg's revelation of himself:
eager to meet and greet (doing church?) but not focused on worship; doing the numbers and money game while dismissing the Word cf. Greg's words; "we had a great talk on the stage and I'm sure people responded to it" but...

That "great talk on the stage", if it was true to God's Word and centered in Christ, was what Paul called "the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes" (Romans 1:16b) That's what works! That's how God works. Proclaiming that is how God works through people.

Present disciples mature through the Word. Future disciples become disciples through the Word. We need to remember what the LORD told Jeremiah: "...let the one who has my Word speak it faithfully". (23:28b) When we do that, God will strengthen our discipleship and make disciples of others. Neither Greg nor I nor you can do what Greg spoke of doing "When I am producing more disciples of Christ"!

The Word works! Trust the Word. Use the Word.

[Sammy J]

I came to this blog to "join in the conversation". I'm not sure that this response should be posted as a comment here, but have only done so because it's the most recent posting.

I really glad to hear that Willow Creek (and many others) are having a re-think about how the church should operate in order to improve discipleship.

My concern is that it's as though this "conversation" is a new one. The truth is it has been going on for decades, and Willow Creek seems to now be playing catch-up.

There's been a lot of voices trying to get across the message that the way "contemporary church" operates is essentially ineffective in reaching the unreached and in discipling those who've already made a commitment to Christ. This is not new, and yet for many it will seem as though this is a discovery that Willow Creek has made on its own! I almost expect to see a patent application for a new model of church programming coming from this.

For some well thought through, well presented, and incredibly thought provoking reading, can I recommend to those who haven't read it "The Shaping of Things to Come" by Alan Hirsch and Mike Frost. This is a pretty confronting book, as are their other writings.

We don't really need more books on the topic, and we don't really need institutions to create a new formula for doing church. We need individuals to take up their calling to evangelize and disciple, and for the church to support them in doing so.

[Thomas Gibson]

Greg - I noticed the the majority of comments are from watching the video or reading the book. I would advise everyone to attend one of the"ON THE ROAD" meetings. I flew to Chicago for the day event, and it is the 2nd half of the day.... the part not on the video or in the book.... the 2nd part of the day that opens the question of "SO WHAT?" You take the research and make it's application personal and compelling and for our group, helped lay a new foundational block that will guide our new strategic plan that will embrace the next 5 years. While some detractors desire to point solely to the Bible to inform, the greatest Evangelists of the last two centuries have professed a need to keep the Bible in one hand, even as we keep the newspaper in the other if we hope to be relevant to the culture at all.
Your research is a foundational block, but our new strategic plan has several blocks that informed by scripture give us the road map for the next 5 years. Thank you for being honest enough to look "inside" so the church can transparently comunicate and live the Good News in the coming days. Tom Gibson

[Deb Lorier]

A.W. Tozer summed this condition up years ago in his book, The Knowledge of the Holy, "We have lost our spirit of worship and our ability to withdraw inwardly to meet God in adoring silence. Modern Christianity is simply not producing the kind of Christian who can appreciate or experience the life in the Spirit. This loss of the concept of majesty has come just when the forces of religion are making dramatic gains and the churches are more prosperous than at any time within the past several hundred years. BUT THE ALARMING THING IS THAT OUR GAINS ARE MOSTLY EXTERNAL AND OUR LOSES WHOLLY INTERNAL."

Our seeker churches are a mile wide and an inch deep. The heartbreak is we have nurtured a whole generation of believers, especially our children on "God Lite."

The GOOD NEWS, God is the great I AM and is sovereign!
"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem... how often I have wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing.

It's time to repent, turn from OUR wicked ways and seek His face! Stop the surveys, focus groups,man's ways...seek the one who knows!!!

[Stephen Munday]

I came and watched the video having been in a church in a UK in the early 90s that implemented a lot of your principles, and having just listened to an interesting discussion on your video on the God Journey podcast, which is here - http://thegodjourney.com/wordpress/?p=164.

First of all, let me say that your principles of being "seeker friendly" have had a great influence on how my concept of church has developed. However, now I am wondering how you can revise even very well-intentioned and well-researched programs to restructure the organization that is called "church", when the reality is that the church is the body of Christ, which cannot be put into a box. I would suggest that the concepts of "living body" and "organization" are very unlikely to be able to coexist successfully together.

It was very interesting for me to hear your research results, which basically seemed to suggest that the more mature (although I don't know the details of how you measured this) people were as Christians, the more likely they were to be dissatisfied with the local church - i.e. the organization to which people attach the label "church". I have found in my own journey, seeing many congregations in the UK, US and from a long period now in Japan, that the more I have grown in maturity, the more the organizations (of many different styles) have come to disappoint. The fact is that I now think that the problem is that I have mixed up the real church, which is the living body of Christ - the believers - and the organization that is (with good intention) labeled "church", to detrimental effect.

I would urge you to consider carefully how you really define "church" because this worldview will influence how you approach the issues you are trying to address. For example: Is church a building? Is it an activity which you can "do" , "organize" or "structure"? Is it even confined to individual geographic areas - local churches? Or is the church the (singular) living and dynamic body of Christ?

So, even if you may give intellectual assent to the church being a singularity that is made up of believers distributed through many organizations and none, if you then find yourself counting attendance on a Sunday morning at a worship service as being indicative of the state of the "church", then I hope you will consider the fact that you are confusing the organization that you happen to be involved in with the body of Christ.

The other thing I would suggest, and something that your summary of your own research seems to show, is that there is a good chance that the most mature believers are most likely to have left the local church body. So, it would seem to be a good idea when drawing up plans for additional surveys to not only look at responses of people who are still participating in the target congregation, but also to try to identify those mature believers who have left and try to find out why that was and where they are now at with their own walk with Jesus. This should also provide interesting insights that simply surveying the present congregation may well not supply.

Anyway, I hope that your reflection and research is fruitful and that through it God leads you into new blessings.

[John Van Donk]

May I observe, from the outset, that the "project" as a whole, seems incredibly important. For any congregation, and for the church at large, to do this kind of self examination and introspection cannot help but produce positive results. Thank you for entering into the fray with the rest of us who have contemplated these issues for some time already.

As is often the case, much hinges on the way the question(s) is/are framed. Greg, in his video, suggests that a disconnect happens for Christians who have reached a certain level of maturity ("close" & "centered") They supposedly begin to feel as though the church no longer scratches them where they itch.

Perhaps the problem lies in an ecclesiocentric (note the small "e") view of the Missio Dei. Perhaps some clues can be found in a broader Kingdom vision. Very likely, people who can reasonably be labeled as "close to Jesus" and with lives that are "centered in Jesus", will have found means of meaningful worship, growth-producing learning, edifying spiritual disciplines, encouraging communion with other believers, and fruit-producing service opportunities, in any number of venues in addition to a local church, but very much part of the Church Universal.

The problem arises when any local church aspires to be the Church, failing to see God at work in the world, building His Kingdom, using servants of various levels of spiritual maturity to make amazing things happen in places other than a local church, even if that local church happens to be as big as Willowcreek.

What if we were to draw an analogy between the church and the family, in which any local church is seen as an entry-point to the Church? In this view Willowcreek is to be highly commended for doing "entry" really well! But, as happens in any family, children grow up and mature, and while retaining their identity as members of the Family, will find ways to live their lives, usually productively, in the bigger world. In a healthy family system there would be regular occasions to celebrate the Family (e.g. various holiday traditions, birthdays, and perhaps even a summer outing). But an equally important result of this normal maturation process is for individual families, and individuals, to reflect, in the world, the identity, integrity, and values that can reasonably be expected of a member of the Family.

One might even go one step further, and contemplate some characteristics of a somewhat less than healthy family system, where a matriarch or patriarch decrees that all family activity shall happen within the context of one family (his or her own). We all know examples of how such forced family fun can sour relationships, and make people feel controlled and manipulated.

It seems to me that Bill was onto something when he envisioned a new paradigm where maturing Christians take increasing responsibility for their spiritual journey. This would leave to the local church the task of drawing in new believers and preparing them for a life of worship and service. Perhaps a meaningful component of our corporate life would be for every new believer to be commisioned into a specific ministry in the world, or, rather, in the Kingdom. In this view the local church would become more of a way-station, rather than the cradle-to-grave destination some of us like to think it is. That designation, "cradle-to-grave", it seems to me, rightfully belongs only to the Church Universal, and it seems to be doing just fine, thank you very much.

[Pat Dys]

Having read your book, I have just one question? Why should I believe you NOW? You admit you were very wrong in the past, and now you seem to claim you have had some special revelation that leads you in this direction and this time you got it right? Why should I believe that? You give scant scripture to back up your assertions and the one you do use (Mark 4:26-27)says that God's kingdom is like seed which sprouts and grows in a way that even the sower does not understand. What makes you think YOU understand with your man-made research just how that happens. God says you don't. God's revelation is complete with scripture and unless you can prove your points by scripture, you are making the same mistake you made the first time. Don't ask me to follow an admittedly wrong leader who doesn't even now have scripture as authority.

[JAG]

I wanted to share a bit of info for you to chew upon from the perspective of one who has told my senior minister, "I am not being fed by your messages." I hope you will listen to this with sincerity and without a religious mindset.

I came to know the Lord outside of a church building. I was attending a small young adults fellowship in Dallas. I was never pressured into giving my life to God or Jesus, but rather was loved upon and welcomed each and every time I went. My friend whom had invited me only mentioned to me ONCE, "If you ever feel like you want to pray and ask Jesus to come into your heart, just let me know."

There was no pressuring of any kind. And here's the thing, most of my life, I had grown up in church when I had met this friend.

You see, even at the age of 16 when my father allowed me to start looking at other churches, I was already fed up with the systematic format that I had experienced in church and hoped it would be different elsewhere. I searched catholic, baptist, pentecostal, non-denominational, Mormonism, and eventually other non-christian forms of religion.

Here was what I discovered from all of this searching. First the good: Mormonism was amazing at making you feel like you were loved and welcomed, non-denominationalism taught me a bit about freedom in worship(in the truer sense, and not just music). That's all!

Now the Bad: I found that I was loved in all of these communities, but only so much as I was involved more. When I was involved less, I wasn't regarded nearly as much. Even worse, when I didn't show up for a few services, I never got calls to make sure I was okay, even from those who I believed to be good friends in the church, and never from a pastor one. I was allowed to exercise spiritual gifts in the non-denominational church, but only as long as I went through someone else to share it. Furthermore, on that point, if that person felt it might cause any waves it was never permitted to be said. Then other churches just booted the spiritual gifts right out, which meant to me, you don't want me here either then. And here's the thing, they all still had a systematic form to them. Not always the same, but still very similar.

Now, I am at a church today, but here is what I have come to: Church as I have known it my whole life, is for the most part, man-made. I have found little in Scripture to support much of what the "Church", not meaning ekklesia, is doing today. Moreover, I have watched more and more people respond to God, to Jesus, outside of a churches walls, then I ever have within.

This is how I grew in the Lord: 95% was from outside a church building or church group. It didn't come from good teachings or powerful sermons. It didn't come from fellowships or bible studies, though these are helpful things.

Here's the thing...it came from seeing God demonstrated. It came from seeing Jesus' teachings lived out, and power being shown.

Let me expound on that a bit. I grew from seeing those things spoken about in Scripture being lived out in a person's life I interacted with. It came from seeing the power of God that was talked about in the Old and New Testament happening before my eyes. Seeing things, and being a part in things like AIDS leaving a mans body and seeing the medical records to prove it was leaving, terminal Lukemia leaving the body of a woman, fevers leaving in a moment, headaches being taken away, animals being prayed over and being brought back to life, and others. It came from prophetic words from people who knew nothing about my life and yet would tell me about things that happened to me as a child, or address sins I had that God was wanting to deal with in me.

To sum it up, it came from a God who I knew and saw to be real, powerful, and present today. It didn't come from reading the Bible 30 minutes a day every day, or praying 1 hour every single day, or going to sermons every saturday or sunday. It didn't come from bible studies every wednesday. It didn't come from young adult meetings, or retreats. These things can help in planting a seed. But that's just it, a seed. It wasn't until I saw what was being taught in the Bible happen today before my eyes that I truly grew in the Lord.

I love my family, all the millions of us, and it is because of that love that I am sharing this. My hope is that you will read it, take it to heart, and consider. Consider that what is needed isn't another systematic format that teaches people to stay inside. But demonstrations of God in lives changed by the Holy Spirit, that challenge people to grow and go outside the church walls.

The Lord said that he sent us out like sheep to the slaughter. I believe that was because Jesus was calling his disciples to go to the places of darkness and proclaim the kingdom, which might lead to their death. It was never meant to be contained in four walls. If you want an idea of what to do better for your church, then consider this: Church buildings are there to help plant seeds, and encourage people to live out first what they have learned in the Bible, not by opinions or teachings. Then, go out.

And one more thing. Stop the numbers game. There is a Scripture about the religous that says...they have a form of godliness, but deny the power there in. Do you worry when the offerings are low? Why? Haven't you read that God knows our needs before we ask? Jesus said,"Seek the Kingdom, and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added to you." Are you seeking the Kingdom or the Dollar? You cannot serve both God and Money. Choose you this day whom you shall serve.

[Geoffrey]

Dear Greg and the Willow Creek Leadership,

I would first like to point out that any ability to see your own error is an evidence of God's grace in your church and I trust that you will find encouragement in that.

I rejoice in the apparent work of God in your church as you would seek to glorify Him more.

However I do have one major concern about the limited information that I have taken in about what is going on at your church. In Greg's video on this site, he seems to indicate that Willow Creek's leadership will be listening to the congregation for guidance in how to lead the church from here on out. This is troubling to me for two reasons:

1. We should be looking to the Word of God to show us how to lead His people. I believe that Christians should fear God and keep his commands rather than fear man and seek to cater to his desires. God has graciously given us His word so that we will know how he wants us to conduct our lives and I believe that is the best place to look for guidance.

2. While Biblical leadership involves considers those you lead, I believe it would be an error to take your cues from them. Imagine if a father asked his children what time they would like to go to bed. Or if Christ asked his disciples what he should do. The fact is, people need leaders because we do not know what is best on our own. As a businessman, I understand the concept of knowing your customers, but I believe that it would be a grievous error to run God's church with that philosophy.

Ultimately, I don't believe that leading a church is about being successful, but rather about being faithful. Understanding the difference between the two will have tremendous implications for your church.

Finally, I hope and pray that God uses your church in a powerful way through all of this to draw this country closer to Himself that it might be conformed to His image. Might I commend to you the resources of IX Marks (www.9marks.org) as you seek to honor God in your church. Thank you for your humility.

your brother,

Geoffrey

[Eric]

In the video, when Greg gets to the marker board, he makes a statement that 80% of the church already knows, "One size doesn't fit all". It in the later stages of spiritual development that this really matters, hence the huge number of moderately mature believers who have no real sense of purpose in their church participation. This is where the real strength of the church is. These are the ones who could have huge impact in the marketplace but the church's one size fits all approach doesn't encourage their development in these arenas.

The unwillingness of the church to move strongly (and train) in the supernatural expressions of the kingdom are hamstringing the Christians who are best positioned for great impact.

[Jeremy]

No repentance? After instructing thousands to do this whole seeker sensitive method for years and years, and now acknoledging it was wrong? After countless souls were pushed out because they were obstacles of transition but in reality were just contending for the Faith and recognzied the error of Hybels et al without doing a survey. Warren and Hybels need to both ask forgiveness for the grave damage they caused on Christ Church. BTW- I had to leave 2 WCA influenced churches over this. My soul was famished attending there and I was considered a trouble maker for voiceing my concerns.

In Christ
Bro. Jeremy

[Ed]

I haven't read the book yet but I have some thoughts on this. In particular they would address Jeremy's comment above. Stalled and dissatisfied people get that way because they expect the church to feed them. Wrong expectation. The church should prepare them to feed themselves. Hybel's video makes this clear. You need to watch both videos to get the full picture.

To brother Jeremy - we live in a country that has the most ample resources for spiritual growth and you are famished? Eat something dude. If you don't know how to feed yourself, own it, and ask someone to teach you how to eat. Hebrews 5:11-14

[Joe B]

No need to come crashing down on Hybels, et al. They didn't invent the "program driven church", they just perfected it. WC knockoff churches are plastic bananas, not pursuing a vision but just striving to get big.

I disagree with Ed that "dissatisfied people" are sitting around waiting to be fed. Maybe some, but don't you remember the circles rising to the right? They are the Christ centered people. THEY are dissatisfied, WC thinks, because the church doesn't "meet their needs." I think otherwise.

What these folks "need" is to leave the nest. They are not fit to be a cog in Bill's machine, they need to minister according to the grace God has given them. Churches whose goal is to grow endlessly try to keep all the kernels of wheat in the one big fat basket. The grains need to fall to the ground. let 'em.

Get your vision bigger than being big. Colonize Chicagoland instead of just trying to get them all in programs.

If you get too many blackbirds roosting in one roost, they all start to starve. The best roost in Tennessee will be littered with dead birds if none of them move on.

[Peter Fong]

In our western culture whenever we see a problem, we want to fix it. Once we fix a problem, we discover anothter problem. This is how churches get distracted and become busy in solving problems instead of paying attention to God.

I hope what Willow Creek and other churches discover from their findings is that a church cannot be 'everything' for 'everyone'. Big churches has advantages and disadvantages, so does small churches. We all work together for the Kingdom. Big churches will always have an advantage in drawing seekers and new believers. Small churches has the advantage of discipling someone on a one to one basis. You look at most of the great Christian leaders and you'll see them coming out of small churches verses big ones.

Each churh must recognize it's strength and see how God is using them in that manner and learn to be content with that. If they choose to change, fine. But be prepare to fall short in other areas. A church cannot be perfect in everything it does. We cannot even come close to fixing everything and meeting everyone's needs. But regardless of our weaknesses, God's Kingdom is still moving forward because God has already planted the seed and it's growing into a big tree.

[Kristy]

Many churches are passionately asserting that Reveal is not revealing. Why do we assume that it is an “either/or” answer – that Reveal simply is full of insight or it isn’t? In my opinion, its value will vary for every church. Some churches may have already figured out how to teach spiritual disciplines and promote individual responsibility for spiritual development – empowering outreach in the more mature segments of their congregation. Others have room for improvement. I believe Reveal may be a message about getting back on track for churches that may have veered off course a bit – perhaps over emphasizing worship and front-end seeker ministry to the neglect of the more mature segments (think of the Sally Morganthaler insights about worship-driven churches). Reveal is a message about getting back on track for the churches that were off track with respect to use of resources. It surely won’t apply in the same way to all of our churches. Many won’t need the lessons from Reveal to assess how their resources are growing God’s kingdom. For others – I think Reveal will serve as a strong catalyst for change. The question is – Where do we fit? Where do you fit? Can Reveal data help your church or not?

[ralandis]

I have never been to Willow Creek or know much about it. I heard a comment on the radio about the reveal website and was curious enough to check it out. I was saddened to hear you say that you need to complete more surveys to ascertain how a church should work. You should spend the time more wisely reading the scriptures and allowing the Holy Spirit to "do church. You have unfortunately concluded if we talk to enough people and reinvent ourselves every so often we will somehow get it right. We will never get it right and that is the first step to getting it right. To find your life (or the life of a church) you have to lose it. I guess my question to you would be - Do you believe that God has a plan better than you could ever imagine? Do you think that you have to help Him? The only way that He asks us to help is to fully depend on Him. So simple, yet so hard.

[Bro. Charles]

In our fellowship the people who are "At the top" so to speak in their walk with the Lord Jesus Christ ARE being fed by the Holy Spirit, through God's Word, prayer, and fellowship.
I am confused to see that you are now attempting to tailor another program to fit the "Needs" of a group of people that, well, are not really growing all that much.
I have been in programs oriented Churches and learned my lesson years ago - programs are not the end all. Our fellowship does not bend to the seeker - we feed the saints, and thusly a strange phenomenon is taking place - Growth in numbers is being matched with equal growth in spirituality!
Prayer and the ministry of God's Word are our responsibility - building the Church is His.
Praying for you,
Bro. Charles
II Timothy 2:1-4