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January 16, 2008

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Ben Dubow

Thanks for posting this--great stuff.

I have had the privilege of talking through these issues with Brad (who serves on our church's board and is a good personal friend) many times over the last months since the Leadership Summit and have enjoyed his blogs on the topic. I also count it as a privilege to have our church be one of the 500 churches participating in the survey (we are in the process of collecting responses as we speak!)

While I very much appreciate Brad's critiques, I have to say as a Lead Pastor I am deeply thankful for Reveal and it has already had a major impact on my own thinking and our strategic planning, organizational structure, teaching ministry, and spiritual formation process at our church.

We are a young (3 years) and small (about 200 on a weekend) church and having access to this type of research has been a real blessing. While some would consider us "emerging" (which is fine as long as you don't mean it as an insult, lol) the questions being asked in Reveal are relevant and central to any ministry, any pastor, any church.

Are we doing what God has called us to do? That is the question! Thanks for your generosity sharing what you are learning with the rest of us!!!

Curtis

I have been curious about REVEAL for several months now. I'm a grad student in psychology and I'm researching spiritual growth. Now as someone who admittedly has not read the book, which may answer some of these technical questions and comments, I just wanted to share some of my thoughts.

1) There is a substantial amount of research that has been done on spiritual growth. How did REVEAL use this knowledge in developing the measures that were being used? Did REVEAL start from scratch or was it building on earlier work?

2) Will you publish the technical results of these surveys with a clear statement of methodology and statistical analysis? Since I have not heard any details on the actual results, it is difficult to feel confident about the findings.

3) Do you expect to receive new findings from the vast number of surveys being distributed to churches? While that may seem valuable to those unfamiliar with these types of studies, from a statistical standpoint it does not seem to make sense to replicate a study that already has such a large N.

4) Do you plan to study different aspects of spiritual growth and faith in future surveys?

5) I would encourage a longitudinal study that measures current involvement in ministry programs to predict future spiritual growth, controlling for as many extraneous variables as possible. This seems like a better way to assess the effect of spiritual programs on spiritual growth.

6) The areas that I have done my research in have been religious motivation (intrinsic vs. extrinsic), God concept (what do people believe God is like?), religious coping (how do people use their faith to deal with problems), and spiritual well-being (do they believe God loves them and God has a plan for their future). I have looked at how these variables have changed for adolescents while at a church camp. Although these are simply my interests, I think it reflects the presence of a much larger body of knowledge that lies outside the scope of the current study. I hope that future surveys can integrate these other forms of studying spirituality.

Finally, I'm extremely grateful for your work! I'm excited to see that spiritual assessment is being seen as an acceptable part of church work. While there are some dangers and limitations to doing this work, it has the potential to add to our knowledge and contradict our assumptions. We're really just beginning to venture into this invaluable source of knowledge.

Thanks,
Curtis

Joe Miller

I created this cartoon, linked in my URL, to illustrate some of the key points surrounding this discussion. Check it out and let me know what you think.

And yes, it is critical of the approach, but I find it only fair to give you a chance to respond publicly to my public concern.

Mark Thompson

I just read REVEAL Where Are You? I would like to suggest an observation for further research as it relates to your look at the Dissatisfied segment. Your observation assumes that the Dissatisfied are dissatisfied with how their local church serves them, rather I would suggest many may be dissatisfied with their ability to serve through the local church. In other words when you get very active in your local church you can quickly grow tired of the entrenched leadership, both clergy and lay. They are after all broken humans with large, flawed egos - often too prideful and self interested to allow another member to follow their sense of Christ leading. Consequently, it is often more effective to grow and serve through other organizations, both formal para-Christian missions and informal or personal missions. Thus they would remain in worship with the local church but describe their relationship as dissatisfying.

Bill Alexy

Has the research extended to or plan to extend to orthodox and catholic congregations?

It might be interesting to compare a formal liturgical worship based on ancient traditions with progressive rapid paced advancement found in many contemporary evangelical circles.

A Christian who believes he is literally partaking in the body of Christ during the Eucharist might exhibit a love for Christ because he is intimately connected with Christ's sacrifice.

The liturgy also has teaching tools built into it that inform one on how to behave as a Christian, through active participation. This liturgical participation teaches that one needs to cooperate with the work of the Spirit, by asking for grace, receiving grace and living gracefully.

It seems the research will be even more highly esteemed if it has been made large enough to sample the entire body of Christ.

Cindy Howard

I'm interested in your findings, but I have this uneasy feeling as I read the information. The tone of these ideas is not a rebuke... but more a question. It seems we are still approaching spiritual growth like a business. I haven't read everything (so maybe I'm missing something) but I don't see the role of prayer and the Holy Spirit in leading and guiding us. It almost seems like "how can we manage spiritual growth without God". (I know that isn't the case). What is the role of fasting and praying for a change of heart in people. We can't shrink wrap God. Just the talk of "best practices" reminds me of how God rarely did the same miracle twice. God doesn't want us to put our confidence in our practices... but in Him alone.

anton

I'm really waiting for the podcast. It's really interesting

Ed Bryson

I just watched Hybels video. Congrats for the courage to self study. WC is a leader in innovation and integrity. This study will add great value...hopefully. I'm afraid, though, they still don't get it. As long as our generic evangelical culture stays enmeshed with reformed theology and its legal metaphor for the atonement, leaders will gravitate to self-help. There is theological gold to be mined in trinitarian theology and nuptial / familial metaphors found there. The gravitational pull then becomes relationship, out of which grows the intimacy serious believers crave. Keep seeking WC. We are pulling for you.
Ed Bryson
Director of Development
Francis Asbury Society

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